Friday, December 30, 2016

Worshiping Krishna as the substratum in all beings

I had to tend to other duties the past week or so and thus was unable to complete the article I started earlier. On thinking about Muralishwar's comment that my belief is that "human love IS Love Divine." Although I there said  "the natural loves can be sadhanas of Divine Love within the context of bhakti-yoga," the fact is that for a pure devotee human love and divine love are indeed one.

The reason for that is that Krishna is the atma of all atmas, the soul of all souls, the Self of all selves, ātmānam akhilātmanām. In the previous article, it was said that the difference between kama and prema is really centered on the Object of that love. If one loves Krishna, that is prema. If one loves someone else without any knowledge of the fact that there is nothing outside of Krishna, then it is kama.

kṛṣṇam enam avehi tvam ātmānam akhilātmanām
jagad-dhitāya so’py atra dehīvābhāti māyayā
vastuto jānatām atra kṛṣṇaṁ sthāsnu cariṣṇu ca
bhagavad-rūpam akhilaṁ nānyad vastv iha kiñcana
sarveṣām api vastūnāṁ bhāvārtho bhavati sthitaḥ
tasyāpi bhagavān kṛṣṇaḥ kim atad vastu rūpyatām
Know this : This Krishna is the Self of all selves. For the benefit of the world, he has appeared here by his illusory potency, as though an embodied being. Those who know things in their truth see Krishna in all conscious and unconscious manifestations. They see everything as the form of the Lord and do not see any substance other than him. There is a meaningful essence present in all things, but the essence of that essence is the Lord Krishna. Please tell me if you can identify anything that is not him.
It was thus further shown in that article that the process of "dovetailing" or āropa can be applied to our natural loves, as stated in Bhakti Sandarbha 217.

I would like to concentrate in this article by discussing the all-important Anuccheda (section) 106 of Bhakti Sandarbha, where the verses from Kapila's instructions to Devahuti are analyzed at length by Jiva Goswami. I have cited some of these verses in previous articles: Sexuality and Spirituality: Dangers, Compassion and Bhakti-rasa and Raganuga Bhakti and Sahaja Sadhana. All of those articles are relevant to the present discussion.

The purpose of Anuccheda 106 is to show how worshiping the demigods can be legitimized by looking at them in relation to Krishna. It also deals with the way devotees are to see and worship Krishna in all living entities. It is a flaw, says Jiva, to worship the gods like Shiva separately from Krishna. However, in the Vaishnava āgamas, where such worship is recommended, it should be understood that the gods can be worshiped as Vaishnavas, as external shields in formal worship (bahiraṅga āvaraṇa), as associates (pārṣada), as vibhūtis of Krishna, or as his adhiṣṭhāna or substratum. Jiva tells the story of an ekants devotee who in this consciousness worshiped Nrisingha in a Shiva linga when he was forced to do so, and Nrisingha indeed burst out of the linga to protect him when it was necessary.

Any recommendation to see the gods as equal to Krishna is meant for those on the jñāna-mārga or in the śānta-rasa. The conclusion, repeated several times is not that worshiping them is wrong, but the flaw is to worship them independent of Krishna (svatantropāsanā). Even so, Jiva Goswami warns against disesteem or contempt of the gods (avajñā or nindā). At this point Sri Jiva Prabhu makes a transition with the words "what to speak of such great personalities, even ordinary living beings are not to be blasphemed because they are also not separate from Krishna who resides within them, i.e., their substratum (adhiṣṭhāna). It is here that the discussion of Kapila's verses begins.

ahaṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu bhūtātmāvasthitaḥ sadā |
tam avajñāya māṁ martyaḥ kurute'rcā-viḍambanam||
I am ever situated as the Supreme Indwelling Self in all living beings. If a mortal being disregards me there, his worship of my deity form is but a mockery. (3.29.21)
Let me interject here that although the word arcā is used here, in my opinion this refers to any kind of worship that is restricted to a God "out there", and this is being referred to elsewhere in this chapter of the Bhāgavatam as bhinna- or pṛthag dṛk, i.e., "separatist" or "one who sees something as separate from or independent of God."

yo māṁ sarveṣu bhūteṣu santam ātmānam īśvaram|
hitvārcāṁ bhajate mauḍhyād bhasmany eva juhoti saḥ||
One who out of foolishness abandons me who am present in all beings as the Self and Supreme Lord to worship the deity form, is pouring oblations into the ashes of the sacrificial fire. (3.29.22)
The parallelism is that just as God is present in the deity form, he is also present in the bodies of the living entities. If one sees Krishna in the deity form but not in the living entities, his worship is incomplete. As Jiva says, he is on the beginning levels of devotion. As one expands one's awareness through self-purification, one begins to see the presence of God in ever-widening clarity.

Our specific interest here is in going from the beginning state to the middle one. After all, one cannot possibly serve or worship all living beings with the single-minded devotion one offers to the deity, or to a guru. As a guide to this stage, which requires making distinctions between different behaviors and different entities, one is therefore advised to look at verses 28-33 in this same chapter:

O virtuous mother, sentient beings are superior to inanimate objects, and among them, those who breathe are better. Living beings that display consciousness are better than them, and better still are those endowed with sense perception. Those who have developed the sense of taste are superior to those who only have the tactile sense, and superior to them are those equipped with the sense of smell. Better yet are those who have developed the sense of hearing.

Better than them are those who can perceive the distinction between forms. Superior to them are those who have teeth in the upper and lower jaws. Superior to them are those who have many legs, and better still are the quadrupeds. Better than them are the bipeds [human beings]. Amongst them, those who follow the system of the four varṇas are the best. Among the four varṇas, the brāhmaṇas are the best. Those who have studied the Vedas are the best amongst the brāhmaṇas, and better than them are those who know the purport of the Vedas.

Better than the brāhmaṇas who know the meaning of the Vedas are those who can dispel all doubts, and superior to them is one who executes his prescribed duty. Better than that person is one who has given up all attachment because he is not seeking any sort of reward from his prescribed duties. Better than him is a person who has fully dedicated his actions, wealth and self to me without interruption. I do not see any being superior to one who has surrendered his self and his actions to me, who does not act for material gain and who has equal vision. (3.29.28-33)

So just as one should not blaspheme or disrespect any of the above entities, the topmost position is reserved for the devotee. In other words, Krishna is most present in his devotee.

dviṣataḥ para-kāye māṁ mānino bhinna-darśinaḥ|
bhūteṣu baddha-vairasya na manaḥ-śāntim ṛcchati||
aham uccāvacair dravyaiḥ kriyayotpannayānaghe|
naiva tuṣye'rcito'rcāyāṁ bhūta-grāmāvamāninaḥ||
A proud person who feels hostility towards me situated in all bodies, who is proud and views everything as being without a connection to me, who is fixed in enmity to other beings, can never have a peaceful mind. O sinless one, I am never pleased with a person who disrespects other living beings, even if he worships me in the deity form through various types of rituals performed with all manner of articles. (3.29.23-24)
arcādāv arcayet tāvad īśvaraṁ māṁ sva-karma-kṛt|
yāvan na veda sva-hṛdi sarva-bhūteṣv avasthitam||
So one should worship me in the deity form, performing his prescribed duties, for as long as he does not know in his heart that I am present in all beings. (3.29.25)
At this point Sri Jiva underlines that one should not give up deity worship at any time. This is exactly right. Although the nature of deity worship may change somewhat in the madhyama and uttama (or sādhaka and siddha) stages, on the bhakti path, one's recognition of God's presence in the individual soul does not preclude his separate existence: one and different. The mutual nature of the culture of bhakti to Radha-Krishna and the culture of love to the living beings in this world is necessary to understand. This will be further explained in an upcoming article.

"Seeing everything as being without connection" (bhinna-darśinaḥ) means "one who is devoid of the perception of the unity of all things, because of not perceiving God as the Paramatma within everything." Alternatively, [it can be read as abhinna-darśinaḥ, in which case it means] he does not see that Bhagavan Krishna, the son of the King of Vraja, is absolutely distinct from everyone else, and thus is actually unable to perceive distinction. [Because he is devoid of the vision of the underlying unity of all things and devoid of the perception of Krishna’s uniqueness] he is therefore proud and egotistical. Consequently, he also behaves inimically towards other beings. The opposite of this mentality is described in the Mahābhārata: "Bhagavan Krishna is quickly pleased with a pure-hearted person who does not disturb others and who treats them in the same manner that a kind father treats his son."
The process is one of simultaneous oneness and difference. This means that one's respect or love for the individual soul is not artificial, i.e., by projecting some Krishna-ness on individual, but accepts that this individual is enacting a specific lila on behalf of Krishna, the underlying purpose of which is always love.

ātmanaś ca parasyāpi yaḥ karoty antarodaram
tasya bhinna-dṛśo mṛtyur vidadhe bhayam ulbaṇam
To a separatist who makes a distinction between his own insides and those of other living beings, I allot horrible fear in the form of death. (3.29.26)
The words "his own insides" (antarodaram) refers to the process of empathy, i.e., one recognizes the hunger of the other being just as one has hunger oneself. Empathy is an essential element of compassion and also of the capacity to experience rasa.

The series concludes:

atha māṁ sarva-bhūteṣu bhūtātmānaṁ kṛtālayam
arcayed dāna-mānābhyāṁ maitryābhinnena cakṣuṣā
Therefore, through charity and offering respect to others, through friendship and by viewing others as non-different [from the Self], one should worship me, who have made my home within all living beings as the Supreme Self. (3.29.27)
So here we have the all-important recommendation of how to relate to other beings as the adhiṣṭhānas of Krishna. Different suggestions are being made. Vivekananda used this series of verses to promote his Daridra Narayan concept. Although it seems to be a relatively minor series of verses in the Bhagavatam, which promotes the idea of theistic worship, in the final analysis, here as in the Eleventh Canto, the teaching is that one must go beyond the external forms of theistic religion, indeed in order to completely understand the concept of God as existing in a human form, with human-like pastimes, one must learn to love God in the human. That is what the anarpita-carīṁ cirāt verse is really getting at: It is teaching a process whereby one can dovetail one's love for a sādhaka or sādhikā into a deepening of devotion for the Supreme Truth in madhura-rasa.

This is not spoken of directly in the Bhagavatam, but the Bhagavatam does open the door to this understanding through indirect statement.

After quoting in full verses 28-33 cited above, Jiva draws from them the conclusion that "extraordinary respect is to be given to my devotees." (mad-bhakteṣu evādara-bāhulyādikaṁ kartavyam). There is no need to belabor the point, as the glory of the devotees and the injunction to see Krishna's presence in them is widely known. And so the passage finally concludes:

manasaitāni bhūtāni praṇamed bahu mānayan |
īśvaro jīva-kalayā praviṣṭo bhagavān iti ||
Considering that Bhagavān Himself, the Supreme Controller, has partially entered within all living beings, one should bow down in one’s mind to all of them with great respect. (3.29.34)
In this final portion of the discussion Jiva Goswami draws a distinction between five kinds of devotees:
  • beginners, for whom the injunction to respect all living beings is given;
  • the sa-śraddha sādhaka, for whom such respect arises out of seeing all things as the vaibhava of the Lord, 
  • the bhāva-sādhaka, i.e., one who is cultivating a relationship with Krishna in Vrindavan. Such a person cultivates relationships in this world on the basis of his culture and relationships in Gokula, and they thus arise naturally: vakṣyamāṇa-rītyā śuddha-bandhutvādi-bhāva-sādhakānām api bandhu-bhāva-siddha-śrī-gokula-vāsy-ādy-śīlanānusāreṇa tādṛśa-bhagavad-guṇānusaraṇena cāsau jāyate .
  • the jāta-bhāva, for whom non-violence and detachment are innate,
  • and the parama-siddha, as described in the Eleventh Canto 11.2.45ff.
Although the passage goes on to speak of the ultimate goal as devotion to Bhagavan, I think this statement is fairly clear in showing that the cultivation of different relationships with devotees is not only a legitimate process of cultivating that bhakti, but a necessary one for the  bhāva-sādhaka, which is the stage we are interested in here. It was already shown that it is the bhāva that one is cultivating and transferring or offering it up to Krishna.

Premature renunciation without understanding the ways of empathy, compassion, friendship and love will not result in any of the higher kinds of relationship with Krishna, because they will always be immersed in aiśvarya, i.e. bhinna-dṛk. Mādhurya means to bring prema into the realm of the human,, of human experience.

The secret of this sadhana is indeed to see Krishna's presence, i.e., the presence of the entire Vrindavan, in every person and experience, but especially beginning with those places where love relationships are already established spontaneously by Krishna's grace.

This is not to be done separately or abandoning one's awareness of bhakti to Krishna, or in our case, the Divine Couple. That is the purport of this passage from Kapila's instructions to Devahuti.

13 comments:

Anonymous said...

Yes, all you have said is true; the true realisation of being one with the all and all with the one in the love of truth is experienced after the samādhi you spoke of "How do you become the original? Samadhi."

The original, the source of all is known by direct experience, and in this living experience one see all as ones own self.

Words alone do not convey this truth, all is a reflection of ones own self.

Muraliswara das said...

Dear Jagadananda, let me thank you for this article and the previous one in this series, "The natural loves and prema". I find your representation to be lucid and convincing. I am very grateful to you for the time and effort you have put into this "last attempt to deal with the questions" similar to mine. The outcome is brilliant. Thank you so much.

Jagadananda Das said...

Thanks. There is more to come. Jai Radhe!

Krishna Kanth said...

Jay Sri Radhe,
Dandavat Pranams.

Satyanarayana dasa Babaji mentions the following points in his debate with you in the video:
1. He says that Krishna prema or the knowledge of bhakti is Svayam prakasha like the Sun, by quoting the verse from Sri Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu 1.2.2
tatra sädhana-bhaktiù—
kåti-sädhyä bhavet sädhya-bhävä sä sädhanäbhidhä
nitya-siddhasya bhävasya präkaöyaà hådi sädhyatä

and by giving the example of Sri Sukadeva Goswami, saying it isn’t NECESSARY to study the material sahitya or material love to understand Radha Krishna Lila.
2. He says that we can get aid from studying the human psychology (as you mentioned in the debate), and he gives an example that Krishna is bluish in colour, and says we shouldn’t think that he has bluish color like the cloud as he is transcendental.
3. He further says that just to give an idea or a concept for us, comparisions are made in sastras, but when we actually see Radha-Krishna, there is no comparision with the similarities mentioned in the sastra.

I am including the commentaries of Srila Vishvanatha Chakravartipada on Srimad-Bhagavatam translated by Srila Bhanu Swami, as I have very poor knowledge of Sanskrit language, Please correct if any mistakes were present in the translations

My conclusions with the support of sastras are:

1. Right now the people in general in this world are avidya-grastha, The symptoms of a person absorbed in 100% avidya are given in Srimad-Bhagavatam.

|| 3.12.2 ||
sasarjägre ’ndha-tämisram
atha tämisram ädi-kåt
mahämohaà ca mohaà ca
tamaç cäjïäna-våttayaù
TRANSLATION
Brahmä, the original creator, first produced the functions of ignorance: tamas, moha, mahämoha, tämisra and andha-tämisra.
COMMENTARY
The functions of ignorance had already been established. At the beginning of the daily creation, they make their appearance in various forms starting with tamas, directly from the Brahmä. Tamas means ignorance of the svarüpa of the jéva. Moha means the identification of self with body etc. Mahämoha means applying possessiveness to objects of enjoyment. Tämisra means the appearance of anger within the mental functions when one’s enjoyment is obstructed. Andha-tämisra means an unconsciousness state brought on by anger. This means death. Not present in the jéva, these were created by ignorance or avidyä. Viñëu Puräëa says:
tamo ’viveko mohaà syäd antaùkaraëa-vibhramaù
mahämohastu vijïeyo grämya-bhoga-sukhaiñaëä
maraëaà hy andha-tämisraà tämisraù krodha ucyate
avidyä païca-parvaiñä prädurbhütä mahätmanaù

Tamas means lack of discrimination. Moha means mistaken identify in the mind. Mahämoha means the desire for happiness from material objects. Andha-tämisra means death. Tämisra means anger. These five types of ignorance made their appearance from Brahmä.
In Yogasütras, Pataïjali says
avidyä asmitä rägadveñäbhiniveñäù
Ignorance (tamas), false identity (moha), attachment (mahämoha), repulsion (tämisra) and fear of death (andha-tämisra) are the five types of ignorance.

Viñëu-svämé has said:
Ajïäna-viparyäsa-bheda-bhaya-çokäù vastutas tv avidyäyä ävaraëa-vikñepäv eva dvau dharmau, täv eva avidyäsmitä-çabdäbhyäà ajïäna-viparyäsa-çabdäbhyäï cocyete
Ignorance of svarüpa, false identity, hatred, fear and lamentation are actually only two functions of avidyä, ävaraëa and vikñepa. Ävaraëa is called avidyä (tamas) or ajïäna and vikñepa is called äsmitä (moha), or viparyäsa.
Attachment, hatred and fear of death (räga, dveña, abhiniveça), though they are qualities of the mind, are types of vikñepa. Not being as prominent as vikñepa, they are included in it.

Krishna Kanth said...

2. How a Jiva in avidya must approach Sri Guru is practically demonstrated by Srila Sanatana Goswamipada in Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita

The Translations are by Srila A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Madhya 20.98
tabe sanätana prabhura caraëe dhariyä
dainya vinati kare dante tåëa laïä
Putting a straw in his mouth and bowing down, Sanätana Gosvämé clasped the lotus feet of Çré Caitanya Mahäprabhu and humbly spoke as follows.

Madhya 20.99
“néca jäti, néca-saìgé, patita adhama
kuviñaya-küpe paòi’ goìäinu janama!
Sanätana Gosvämé said, “I was born in a low family, and my associates are all low-class men. I myself am fallen and am the lowest of men. Indeed, I have passed my whole life fallen in the well of sinful materialism.

Madhya 20.100
äpanära hitähita kichui nä jäni!
grämya-vyavahäre paëòita, täi satya mäni
“I do not know what is beneficial for me or what is detrimental. Nonetheless, in ordinary dealings people consider me a learned scholar, and I am also thinking of myself as such.

Madhya 20.101
kåpä kari’ yadi more kariyächa uddhära
äpana-kåpäte kaha ‘kartavya’ ämära
“Out of Your causeless mercy, You have delivered me from the materialistic path. Now, by the same causeless mercy, please tell me what my duty is.

Madhya 20.102
‘ke ämi’, ‘kene ämäya järe täpa-traya’
ihä nähi jäni—‘kemane hita haya’
“Who am I? Why do the threefold miseries always give me trouble? If I do not know this, how can I be benefited?

Madhya 20.103
‘sädhya’-‘sädhana’-tattva puchite nä jäni
kåpä kari’ saba tattva kaha ta’ äpani“
“Actually I do not know how to inquire about the goal of life and the process for obtaining it. Being merciful upon me, please explain all these truths.”

Krishna Kanth said...



3. Both Vidya and avidya doesn’t exist in the lord but in the Jiva is supported from the following verse from Srimad-Bhagavatam:
|| 8.5.27 ||
vipaçcitaà präëa-mano-dhiyätmanäm
arthendriyäbhäsam anidram avraëam
chäyätapau yatra na gådhra-pakñau
tam akñaraà khaà tri-yugaà vrajämahe
TRANSLATION
We surrender to the knower of the living entities, präëa, mind, intelligence and ahaìkära, to the Lord who is not available to the senses and sense objects, who is constantly witnessing, but not affected, who has no vidyä and avidyä like the jéva, who is indestructible, and who is the form of happiness endowed with six great qualities.
COMMENTARY
Then the Lord’s omniscience is described. He is the knower (vipaçcitam) of the living entities, of their präëa, mind, intelligence and ahaìkara (ätmä). Ätma can also mean the body or the jéva. He cannot be grasped (abhäsam) by the senses or sense objects (artha). He is without sleep, seeing everything. But he is unaffected (avraëam), not suffering on seeing the jéva’s suffering. The reason for all of this is that in him avidyä and vidyä (chäyä ätapau) do not exist, as in the jéva (gådhra-pakñau). Therefore he is indestructible and he has his own eternal form of happiness (kham). According to the dictionary kham means the senses, happiness and Svarga. This happiness is enumerated. It is three times two, or six. The Lord has six outstanding qualities. We surrender to that Lord.

Krishna Kanth said...

4. As the jiva is in anadi-avidya, Krishna gives the knowledge of bhakti through the sastras especially BG,SB and C.C for the gaudiya Vaishnavas to understand the sambandha, abhideya and prayojana. and he personally comes as Sri Rama Chandra, the maryada purushottama to teach the maryada and Sriman Gauranga Mahaprabhu, the prema-purushottama to teach Saranagati through the love of Srimati Radharani practically, A Jiva cannot understand himself and the lord, This knowledge must come externally is supported by Srimad-Bhagavatam.

|| 1.18.16 ||
sa vai mahä-bhägavataù parékñid
yenäpavargäkhyam adabhra-buddhiù |
jïänena vaiyäsaki-çabditena
bheje khagendra-dhvaja-päda-mülam ||
TRANSLATION
Parékñit, the great devotee, with pure intelligence, attained liberation, in the form of the feet of the Lord having a flag marked with Garuòa, through knowledge spoken by Çukadeva.
COMMENTARY
“By jïäna one attains liberation. Why do you not desire liberation as a result of your knowledge?”
“For us devotees, jïäna actually means tasting the activities of the Lord. Its result, liberation, means attaining the feet of the Lord. Parékñit is the example. Please talk about the Lord’s activities by which Parékñit attained the lotus feet of the Lord who has a flag with Garuòa.”
“But in the Twelfth Canto it is said that Parékñit attains liberation.”
“That is true. He attained apavarga. Apavarga means the lotus feet of the Lord for the devotees. This is explained in the Fifth Canto. Yathävarëa-vidhänam apavargaç ca bhavati yo ’sau bhagavati bhakti-yogaù: liberation by methods according to varëa is bhakti to the Lord. (SB 5.19.19-20) Just as apavarga is defined as the lotus feet of the Lord, jïäna is defined as pastimes of the Lord, as described by Çukadeva. Thus it is not untrue that Parékñit attained apavarga by jïäna. This answers the question previously asked, “How did his death take place, and what did he achieve after his death?” (SB 1.12.2)

|| 11.22.10 ||
anädy-avidyä-yuktasya
puruñasyätma-vedanam
svato na sambhaväd anyas
tattva-jïo jïäna-do bhavet
TRANSLATION
Because a person whether covered or not covered by beginningless ignorance cannot realize ätmä on his own, there must a separate Supreme Lord who knows and gives knowledge.
COMMENTARY
“I accept that there is different counting because of the inclusion of elements within others. How can some claim that jéva and the Lord are different, maintaining that there are twenty-six elements (by substituting prakåti for the three guëas, which made twenty-eight elements)?” Because it is not possible for the jéva, whether covered by avidyä or not, to have knowledge of ätmä on his own, there must exist a separate Supreme Lord. This is the Vaisëava philosophy.

Krishna Kanth said...


5. Krishna Prema cannot be attained by practice like becoming a scholar in the field of academic knowledge, it is only attained by Sri Guru-Vaishnava Seva and kripa is supported from C.C, B.R.S
From Sri Chaitanya Charitamrita:
Advaitaji’s translation:
Madhya 22.107
nitya-siddha kåñëa-prema ‘sädhya’ kabhu naya
çravaëädi-çuddha-citte karaye udaya
“Love of Kṛṣṇa is eternally perfect, it is never merely produced by sadhana – when the heart is purified by hearing and so, it arises.”

Madhya 19.151
brahmäëòa bhramite kona bhägyavän jéva
guru-kåñëa-prasäde päya bhakti-latä-béja
“Wandering throughout the universe, some fortunate soul receives the seed of devotion, by the grace of Guru or Kṛṣṇa.

From Sri Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu:
Bhanu Swami Translation:
||1.2.2||
tatra sädhana-bhaktiù—
kåti-sädhyä bhavet sädhya-bhävä sä sädhanäbhidhä |
nitya-siddhasya bhävasya präkaöyaà hådi sädhyatä ||2||
Translation: Now sädhana-bhakti will be defined:
Action of the senses, which produces the stage of bhäva, is called sädhana-bhakti. This attained state of bhäva-bhakti (sädhyatä) is an eternal sthäyi-bhäva which is not created, but simply manifests within the soul by the spiritual energy of the Lord.
6. Both Satyanarayana dasji and jagatji are correct in their own perspectives,
(a) Babaji wants to show that Krishna prema cannot be attained by one’s endeavour, but by the mercy and one’s seva of Sri Guru, Gauranga and the Vaishnavas. That is why he was saying that Krishna Prema is self-manifesting (svayam-prakasha) and IT IS NOT NECESSARY TO EXPERIENCE THE MATERIAL LOVE IN THIS WORLD FOR A PERSON TO UNDERSTAND RADHA-KRISHNA LILA WHICH IS COMPLETELY TRANSCENDENTAL.
(b) Jagatji is giving the example of HOW A COMMON MAN BECOMING A SADHAKA APPROACHES SASTRA AND UNDERSTANDS KRISHNA AND HIS PARAPHERNALIA THROUGH HIS MIND AND THE SENSES, WHICH 99.9% OF THE SADHAKAS WHO ARE NOT IN THE STATE OF PURE GOODNESS LIKE SRILA SUKADEVA GOSWAMI IN THIS WORLD PERFORM SADHANA.
(c) Both the above two points are valid and must be applied in one’s Krishna Conscious life to get the complete picture of how a sadhaka attains Krishna Prema going through the stages from sraddha to prema.

Any comments and corrections are heartily welcomed.

Regards,
Krishna Kanth.

Anonymous said...

Dear Krishna Kanth,

It took a while to read through your extensive 5-part comment, with all of its carefully crafted quotes, translations and commentaries (thank you for writing it).

Will you kindly take the time to write about your own spiritual experience (in your own words), so that we may understand your 5-part commentary in context of the sum of the parts of your dialogue which project the validity of Kṛṣṇa consciousness as a cohesive whole relative to your own experience of grace especially in light of your closing comment:

"Both the above two points are valid and must be applied in one’s Krishna Conscious life to get the complete picture of how a sadhaka attains Krishna Prema going through the stages from sraddha to prema."

Thank you.

Krishna Kanth said...

Dear Anonymousji,

Thank you very much for your patience for reading my extensive comments, Actually I sent my realizations from the debate without any scriptural quotes to Jagatji via facebook, for confirmation and requested him to correct my points. He kindly read my message and agreed with my points and told me to post this msg in his blog as a comment.

This is the msg sent by him to me in his own words via fb:

"I agree.
You can post to the blog, it would be good there as a comment."

Then with his permission I posted my comments supported with scriptural quotes.

I am just a 22 year old man introduced to Krishna Consciousness through ISKCON in the year 2012. I am in my budding stage of my Krishna bhakti, a non-initiated sadhaka searching for a Sad-Guru.


My experiences in my KC are:

1. Krishna is my ever well- wisher and my best friend as he himself says Suhådaà sarva-bhütänäm

2. As the lord says in the Gita Bg 18.57

cetasä sarva-karmäëi
mayi sannyasya mat-paraù
buddhi-yogam upäçritya
mac-cittaù satataà bhava

In all activities just depend upon Me and work always under My protection. In such devotional service, be fully conscious of Me.

Bg 18.58
mac-cittaù sarva-durgäëi
mat-prasädät tariñyasi
atha cet tvam ahaìkärän
na çroñyasi vinaìkñyasi

If you become conscious of Me, you will pass over all the obstacles of conditioned life by My grace. If, however, you do not work in such consciousness but act through false ego, not hearing Me, you will be lost.

SO, I DON’T KNOW HOW KRISHNA IS ORCHESTRATING MY LIFE. Every moment I have to be dependent on him rather on my imperfect senses and my pea-brain. My duty is only to serve him and the Vaishnavas, finding faults in me without finding faults in others. I have to be in a neutral state (AS MY ONLY GOAL BEFORE COMING TO KC WAS TO KNOW MYSELF AND MY CREATOR AND MY RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM), keeping complete faith in Krishna rather than being a fanatic member of any party and stop speculating how the lord is guiding my life. This is what Krishna wants as he says:

sarva-dharmän parityajya
mäm ekaà çaraëaà vraja
ahaà tväà sarva-päpebhyo
mokñayiñyämi mä çucaù

Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear.

In these years of my Krishna Bhakti, There are many instances in my life where I can see the lord's personal hand in my life protecting me from several deviations and making me stick to the only one point "SRI KRISHNAM SHARANAM MAMA"

Ultimately by Sri Gaura-Nitai and Sri Vaishnavas Kripa I can get Krishna Prema. What I meant by your term "the validity of Kṛṣṇa consciousness as a cohesive whole relative to the own experience of grace" is like this:

Sri Gauranga's servants are the most merciful in this Kali Yuga giving Krishna-prema to the most unfortunate souls like me, I am in a deep dark well (which is compared to the material world) always suffering from the kleshas. For delivering me from this well, the Vaishnavas are lowering a bucket in the well so that I can climb and sit in the bucket and they are pulling the bucket out of the well. Especially in Kali Yuga it takes some effort to hold on to the bucket and sit in it QUIETLY without making any mischief and not falling from it in the middle of the process of deliverance from the DEEP DARK WELL.

This effort of "SITTING IN THE BUCKET QUIETLY WITHOUT MAKING ANY MISCHIEF AND ALWAYS HAVING A PRAYERFUL MIND AND A GRATEFUL HEART", is what I am calling as the Sadhana of a sadhaka to get Krishna Prema especially in my case.


I am grateful to many Vaishnavas especially from Sri Sampradaya and Gaudiya Sampradaya (ISKCON, GAUDIYA MATH, TRADITIONAL- PARIVARS) for their mercy.

All glories to the Vaishnavas,
Jay Sri Radhe.

Anonymous said...

My apology Krishna Kanth for writing anonymously, it is śrī maccidānanda nātha; my person sometimes writes without thought of names, and the name śrī maccidānanda nātha is one that my person may use from time-to-time.

Thank you for kindly for making the effort to write openly and honestly about yourself, your candor is very much appreciated.

From what you have said, you are truly in good company and fortunate at a young age to be in such good fellowship of those whom only have the best intentions for you.

My person is happy to know you, humbled by your practice, and wishes you well.

Yours in truth,

M.N.

Anonymous said...


My person is currently looking for a digital copy of the Īśāna-saṁhitā, and whilst searching came across the following anthology which also included a verse from the Īśāna-saṁhitā:

http://www.purebhakti.com/resources/ebooks-a-magazines-mainmenu-63/bhakti-books/english/266-caitanya-mahaprabhu-the-original-form-of-godhead.html

And thought that you (Krishna Kanth) may be interested in reading the same.

Kind regards,

M.N.


Notes

śṛṇu yār vāṅgi subhage yat sampanṭaṁ gopitaṁ vacaḥ
eka eva hi gauraṅgaḥ kalau pūrṇa-phala-pradaḥ
yau vai kṛṣṇaḥ sa gauraṅgas tamo-bhedo na vidyate
śikṣārthaṁ sādhakānāñ ca svayaṁ sādhaka-rūpa-dhṛk
śikṣā-guruḥ śacī-putraḥ pūrṇa-brahma na saṁśayaḥ

Lord Śiva said to Pārvatī: “O lady with beautiful limbs! O
auspicious one! Listen to my answer in response to your confidential
inquiry! Only the worship of Śrī Gaurāṅga Mahāprabhu will yield full
results in the age of Kali. Kṛṣṇa is Gaurāṅga. There is no difference
between Them. The Supreme Lord will assume the form of a sādhaka
to instruct devotees in the method of worship (bhajana), as a śikṣā-guru.
Of this there is no doubt.”

Anonymous said...


"The Supreme Personality of Godhead, Govinda, the supreme enjoyer, whose form is transcendental, who is beyond the touch of the three modes of material nature, and who is all pervading Supersoul residing in the-hearts of all living entities, will appear again in the Kali-age. Appearing as the greatest devotee, the Supreme Personality of Godhead will assume a two-armed form of golden complexion in His abode of Goloka Vrindavan manifested on the bank of the Ganga at Navadvip. He will disseminate pure devotional service in the world. This incarnation of the Lord is described in the following verses."

Continue reading at:

http://wikikrishna.com/index.php?title=Prediction_of_Sri_Chaitanya_Mahaprabhu_I